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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Jun 4, 2011 10:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

i love and respect Butch, but i don't believe he's heard some of the tapes i've spent a considerable amount of time listening to ;-)

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Jun 4, 2011 10:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

seriously though, i think the idea that since he's a musician he must "know" more or have a more valid opinion of a body of work is nonsense. his opinion seems to be based on a very limited experience of the band's music, maybe just from the few times they jammed with each other. i can't imagine this guy has ever given them a serious listen.

This post was modified by clementinescaboose on 2011-06-05 05:58:51

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jun 5, 2011 9:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks is DEAD on...as CLIFF notes...

Well, I beg to differ...the two bands played a great many times together, and were linked at the hip by the Fillmore runs, Bill Graham, and certainly all of us in the Bay Area in the early 70s when we viewed, rightly or wrongly, the ABB as the southern fried DEAD.

BTrucks is "right on", IMHO, and yet, of course you're right that it doesn't really matter, BUT to know what others that "made it" have to say about their fellow travelers in the music biz counts a bit more, in my book, than what say, me or LiA or whomever here has to say.

EG, when Jack Bruce trots out a list of the best bass players ever, I listen. When Jerry and Mickey agree the night they saw CREAM that they (CREAM) were the "best frickin band in the World", it means something...

How much more it means I won't debate, but I think if we polled everyone here at the forum, the ranking of music talent would look something like this:

JG
PL
BK
BW + keybd players + Mickey (I am saying it's close enough for debate, but the top three are no brainers).

Does anyone think otherwise? Bob lovers might put him third, and fight the remaining folks, but BTrucks got it just about right it seems to me...

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Poster: billydlions Date: Jun 5, 2011 10:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks is DEAD on...as CLIFF notes...

I think there are 2 points that he makes and one is certainly debatable. Bob was important to the band but he was not in the same league as the top 3, so I am in agreement with his first point.

The debatable statement is "Once and a while they would really lock in and find a groove. It was very few and far between but they would do it. The later years of the band it almost never happened."

I'll agree with the later years statement but to say they were locked in few and far between in the years 1968-1981 is flat out wrong! Isn't almost all of 1972, 1973 & 1977 viewed as being outstanding with very few exceptions? Summer of 1974 and I'll even throw in 1981 as being exceptional as well.

Then again we do not know the context of the statement, but does it really matter? It's not going to change my listening habits.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jun 5, 2011 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks is DEAD on...as CLIFF notes...

"Once and a while they would really lock in and find a groove. It was very few and far between but they would do it. The later years of the band it almost never happened."

I knew you would disagree with that statement billydlions :)

And later on Utopian will chime in here, link some shows from 1987 and claim that the Grateful Dead were locking in while Jerry was high on Persian, but the sad fact is Trucks was right about everything...

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Poster: utopian Date: Jun 6, 2011 4:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Wrong again.

Jerry started smoking Persian in 76, as per skully's book when he names the exact date... Anyone?
Apparently he was not partaking in 87 when he was in a clean mode.

Peace

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Poster: billydlions Date: Jun 5, 2011 11:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks is DEAD on...as CLIFF notes...

Why did you think I would disagree with that statement? I did agree with the later year part of what he said. I'm actually defending your era!

Anyway Cliff, it's been a long time since we've had a good debate, but the golf course is calling my name right now.

BTW- fishing has been amazing down here the last few months. It almost makes me wish I had a boat!

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jun 5, 2011 1:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks is DEAD on...as CLIFF notes...

It all depends on your definition of "locked-in"

By my definition, I dont think the Grateful Dead "locked in" all that much prior to 1977.

To me locked in means a great deal more than just cohesive jamming. I don't think the playing style of the Grateful Deal lent itself to "locking-in" In fact quite the opposite is true. This is likely the reason that we enjoy their music so much. It's more about where they go than how they get there...

What have they been catching down in Stuart lately?

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Poster: billydlions Date: Jun 5, 2011 7:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks is DEAD on...as CLIFF notes...

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/outdoors/

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jun 5, 2011 10:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

It's really an indisputable fact that that the playing style of the Allman Brothers Band was much tighter and focused than that of the Grateful Dead. The Allman's perfotmances sound a great deal more polished than those of the Grateful Dead. The Grateful Dead rarely "locked-in" with laser focused intensity a la the Allmans. But this does not make the Allmans any better than the Grateful Dead, or their live music superior.

I enjoy the music of the Grateful Dead a great deal more than that of the Allmans. There is a reason that we collect GD shows. Do the performances of the Allmans vary as much as those of the Grateful Dead. Is one Allman Brothers Band live rendition of "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" or "Statestboro Blues" that different from any other?

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Poster: leftwinger57 Date: Jun 7, 2011 3:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

Cliff , This whole locked in phrase was eating at me ever since this post started..I looked but couldn't find it but I'm sure all this came from the liner notes from the closing of the Fillmore East by the Allmans. It wasn't Butch Trucks who wrote the notes but I'm sure this is where it's picked up on. The fact that a professional musician has an opinion should not be that hard to grasp whether or not you agree w/ it or not. I've said many times that they basically sucked and wasn't worth the $ or time put in .Then you have the gem of shows that just flow ,no noodling,no tuning ,no ridiculous banter or unwanted feedback but the true unfiltered flowing music you knew was going to happen, yes those were the shows worth going to see and for me a real dick of a critic they have taken places I've never been before and certainly would call most of that being locked in.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jun 5, 2011 10:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

Bingo; and of course, this is the context in which he made his comment, I am sure.

A la the Broken Record, I have all the CREAM shows, and Jack, Ginger and Eric would certainly agree with Butch BUT as with the ABB, as amazing as what CREAM could do, it is something you can only listen to for a few yrs straight (har) before you've heard it all. They are much tighter, and would view, as they noted, that the DEAD were not in their league, and that is true, like it or not.

Endless noodling, wanderings, latter era lack of energy and innovation, etc., were (oftentimes) hallmarks of the band we love, so of course other great musical talents will scratch their heads at the long time interest and hero worship.

I am certain JBruce could have done anything with a bass that Phil could, but lacking the other components of the DEAD on stage (and absent the interest, no doubt), he didn't, but that's what being unique and individualistic (so critical in all 'artforms') is all about it seems to me.

Hope all is well with the fish, and your pursuits of them, D; been a while...

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jun 5, 2011 2:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

Catching some Striped Bass WT, but nothing very big. Just started a new gig last week, been listening to plenty of 80's Grateful Dead.

The new boat I'm running has Serius but the mix I have been hearing has been disapointing. Lots of studio music and plenty of later era junk :(

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Jun 5, 2011 1:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

Here's Robert Christgau's review of the allman's "At Fillmore East":

Four sides comprising seven titles--only two of them repeated (ad infinitum) from the band's studio albums--and they sure do boogie. But even if Duane Allman plus Dickey Betts does equal Jerry Garcia, the Dead know roads are for getting somewhere. That is, Garcia (not to bring in John Coltrane) always takes you someplace unexpected on a long solo. I guess the appeal here is the inevitability of it all. B-

This succinctly summarizes by feelings about the Allmans vs. the Dead. The A.B.s are at their best with shorter jams (I'm talking 10-15 minutes) with lots of solo trading. None of the individual members could hold my attention for more than a few minutes (even Duane). Elizabeth Reed from the above mentioned album is a great cut, but the soloing, although very skillful, is pretty straightforward rhythmically and harmonically.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jun 5, 2011 1:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

I am fairly certain that if the GD were of the mindset to rehearse a show and play it the same way every night they too could have been much tighter and had produced a far more polished product,at which point they no longer would have been the GD.
Garcia in his prime was far more interesting and all around superior player to the highly over rated Mr. Clapton,as for the tandem of Lesh/Kreutzman in relation to Bruce/Baker I see that as a push.While Cream's music was good it was just straight ahead rock and roll,and how hard is that.I don't hear anything that Bruce/Baker tandem played that Lesh/Kreutzman couldn't handle.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jun 5, 2011 4:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

If you can get ahold of tapes of live shows, the way JBruce handled a bass was unreal. The fashion in which he could bend notes, literally, was breath-taking...this doesn't always come thru in standard releases. I've known two serious bass players in my life, both of whom were DEAD heads first and foremost, and fashioned much of their style after Phil; nonetheless, in recent discussions with them they both agreed that JB stood apart, almost to the degree Jimi did with lead players. Only two twits, I know, but they have made a living (modest, no doubt) playing the instrument...FWIW. I take your pt that it was straight up blues based R&R, and limited in that respect.

This is not to say we don't all like the DEAD more, but any discussion among serious musical sorts discussing the 60s ALWAYS includes EC, JB & GB, and though it pains us, not necessarily JG (but they should), PL (probably should), and BK (not so sure). A number of bass players in successful bands from the 80s mention JB as an inspiration (in my readings anyhow) but not our man Phil...not sure why, but perhaps worth considering.

Still, overall body of work? Of course we find more to the DEAD. But I am talking a narrow aspect of pure skill/talent.

We'll have to agree to disagree on BK vs GB; I am not sure that is even up for discussion unless we go "apples and oranges" on the taste biz...

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jun 5, 2011 5:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

WT,I wasn't so much down playing Jack and Ginger's abilities as touting Phil and Bill's.I fully recognize Jack Bruce's brilliance and over the years have seen him perform in different types of musical settings and acquit him self quite nicely showing great versatility.As you said about Ginger we will have to agree to disagree.

For me this topic wasn't so much about which music is better,but once again another jerkoff like Butch Trucks speaking about something he is obviously unqualified to comment on.Just because you play an instrument doesn't automatically qualify you as an expert on all musical topics,Gene Simmons and Kenny G are and I don't care to hear their opinions.I don't think he would enjoy Weir saying the Allman's music is well practiced,derivative horseshit and that the only talented members are dead(Duane,Berry),kicked out(Dicky),or hired guns(Warren,Derek).As a fellow musician who knows these guys for 40 years and last year had them join (Weir,Phil) his band onstage you would think he could keep these petty remarks to himself.

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Jun 5, 2011 9:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

My point exactly! I understand LiAs point that he may be speaking vaguely, and we don't really understand the context of what he's saying necessarily. But to me it comes off as the arrogance of someone whom just because they are a musician, their opinion is garnering more respect than it merits. Defensive maybe, but thats just my two cents!

This post was modified by clementinescaboose on 2011-06-06 04:21:13

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jun 5, 2011 8:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

Yeah, thinking through it again, there could be some aspects to it that are a bit over the top (BT's comments); I was taking it lightly, in the spirit of many that critized the boys for being loose, etc--ie, giving him the benefit of the doubt, motivation wise. And frankly, I don't know squat about him vis-a-vis axes to grind or general comments that might peg him as a hyper-critical sort regarding the DEAD.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jun 5, 2011 9:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

I take umbrage with three parts of Trucks statement as it relates to the 72'-74'portion of the bands history.First only a portion of the bands music was country/ bluegrass based,the bulk of their repertoire and certainly the more "jam" based material had very little to do those styles,if one wants to nitpick you could make the point that Jerry's style was very informed by bluegrass banjo players,but I don't think during Dark Star Earl Scruggs jumps to mind.
Second,I find the "every oncein a while they would find a groove" comment to be completely without merit since there are literally hundreds of examples of the band playing unique,complex and interesting music right here on the archive on such pieces as Dark Star,PITB,Other One,Eyes of the World,Bird Song and in a different manner on the rest of their catalog.
Finally,to infer that Keith and Weir weren't capable of "really playing" is ludicrous.While Keith might not have been a great pianist,he surely was very competent and fit the band perfectly,adding some beautiful and inventive piano and keyboard work.As for Weir's ability on guitar,it should go with out saying that he is a fine guitarist,singular in style.
Mr. Trucks sounds a little bitter perhaps jealous of the Dead's poularity.I find it funny that he would call out another bands music when his band is mired in the white boy blues genre and has not been relevant since Duane died in 1971.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Jun 5, 2011 10:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

"... you could make the point that Jerry's style was very informed by bluegrass banjo players,but I don't think during Dark Star Earl Scruggs jumps to mind."

Then how do you explain the ending on the 45 rpm single version of Dark Star?

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jun 6, 2011 9:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

Honestly Duckpond I have never heard the 45 rpm single of Dark Star since I have no interest at all in the bands studio efforts,but since you bring it up I would assume it has either some banjo or banjo influenced playing on it.I would explain that by saying that version has some banjo or banjo influenced playing on it as opposed to the majority which doesn't.My point was the improvisational music was less influenced by country/bluegrass roots than other styles,if you hear it differently than so be it.

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Poster: duckpond74 Date: Jun 6, 2011 11:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

"My point was the improvisational music was less influenced by country/bluegrass roots than other styles,if you hear it differently than so be it."

I get your point jerlouvis, and I'll agree that we all can hear things differently . . . but, your having not heard that strange and silly 2:44 Dark Star single, let my tongue-in-cheek response to your banjo comment - specifically with you mentioning Earl Scruggs - fall flat. To let you know, after a quick paced, jaunty '68 style Dark Star that features chorused vocals, sitar-like sounds, a brief acoustic guitar bit - and no improvisation whatsoever - the tune ends with Jerry reciting prose while playing a short, brisk, and a very strong Earl Scruggs style banjo bit. . . . I actually responded, 'cuz I thought your Scruggs / banjo comment was alluding to the single. Some time when you have 3 minutes to spare and want to see why a Dark Star / Earl Scruggs relationship does indeed exist, check it out. I know of one musician who took up banjo and has made a comfortable living all because he was so taken with that bit on the single. . . . funny old world.

Along these lines, I've always felt that what many folks call the 'Mind Left Body Jam' was bluegrass and banjo influenced. Your thoughts or comments would be welcome.

And, by the way, I agree with much of what both you and Butch Trucks have stated . . . we all hear it differently.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jun 6, 2011 6:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

"What many folks call the 'Mind Left Body Jam' was bluegrass and banjo influenced."

I doubt this. I think it may sound this way cause Jerry's fingerpicking the chords sometimes - and on 9/21/72 it does come out of that bluegrassy jam, kind of like a cross with the Goin' Down the Road intro. But fingerpicking arpeggios doesn't necessarily mean Jerry's channeling the banjo....any more than his using the slide in the Mind Left Body jam means it was influenced by blues slide playing! It was kind of a combination of everything....
Actually I hear more of a bluegrassy element the way Jerry plays that extended outro to Playing in the Band they'd do in '74!

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jun 6, 2011 4:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Butch Trucks Quote (Dead-Related)

After reading the description of that Dark Star in your response DP,somewhere in the recesses of my crispy brainpan I do recall hearing that version some many years ago and now better understand your original post.As for the bluegrass/banjo influence I find that it filters it's way into the music more in the way Jerry plays his guitar with a banjo technique than a strong country/bluegrass/banjo resultant sound during the jams.